YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

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YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Trovsky on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:25


Nintendo encourages fan engagement on YouTube through the Nintendo Creators Program. Under the program, participants are granted a license to use Nintendo’s characters, games, and other intellectual property, subject to the Code of Conduct included with the agreement. However, please note that this Code of Conduct prohibits you, among other things, from posting any content using unauthorized software or copies of games. This includes videos featuring tool-assisted speedruns, which require making a copy of a game's ROM file, and running the copied ROM through an emulator. If you are interested in learning more about the Nintendo Creators Program, please see: https://r.ncp.nintendo.net/

Source: http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-s-cracking-down-on-speedrunning-and-rom-hacking-videos-310152.phtml


Last edited by Trovsky on Fri 3 Jun 2016 - 22:04; edited 1 time in total

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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Conn on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:47

WTF

why does Nintendo suddenly care about their 25 years old games Ohmygod

Anyways, modifying roms (romhacking) and using roms on emulators isn't illegal, as long as you own the original cartridge, which in case of zelda3 most of us do.

By making a derivative work using Nintendo's IP, and then displaying Nintendo's IP on your YouTube channel, you have violated Nintendo's exclusive rights.
It's not violating Nintendo's exclusive rights making derivates of their intellectual properties. You have bought it, and just like with any of your property you can modify it, even destroy it and whatsoever.
However, I do not know whether it is allowed to publish your modified work on youtube...
But as far I know you are allowed to make a copy of your property as long you do not give it to third people. It is allowed to publish patches as long as you do not provide completely patched roms.

Because of this, we ask that you please remove the video in question from your channel, and confirm that you will not post any videos using unauthorized software or copies of games, distribute or continue work on the modification, or take any other steps that would infringe Nintendo's rights.
Reading this I think Nintendo is aware of the "legal grey zone", since they "kindly" ask to remove the videos and not acting with lawyers and whatsoever.
However I do not know what's going on behind the curtains, whether they can force youtube to remove them.

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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Euclid on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 19:38

Unless you label something HACK OF X - you can always claimed the video is done with a zeldaclassic or something.

Never a fan of videos (they take too much work) - that's why i stick to images.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Trovsky on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 20:16

Conn wrote:Anyways, modifying roms (romhacking) and using roms on emulators isn't illegal, as long as you own the original cartridge, which in case of zelda3 most of us do.
Puzzledude wrote:
I don't know about you but I have all the legal right in the world to be playing and hacking this game.
Actually you never have the legal right for hacking. Buying the orginal gives you the right to use it. But that's it. Maybe it would still be legaly acceptable for you to scan this cart for personal archive purposes, so you then also own the digital rom (not just the cart).

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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 22:41

Just my opinion, but if you are a company and you need to rely on piece of software that is now considered vintage to get your business going then you seriously need to reconsider your current business model.

Instead of relying on your old successes as a company focus on creating brand new ones.

I could just see a meeting at Nintendo such as this:

Okay everybody, what important topics should we talk about today? Should we talk about our plans for the next system called the Nintendo NX or should we talk about protecting our 25 year old games what created long ago?

For me personally I had an NES and purchased lots of games for it then I got an SNES and purchased lots of games for it and then I got an N64 and purchased lots of games for it. I have been a Nintendo fan for a long time and have spent lots of money on their products.

To me it really is a slap in the face when Nintendo says that I can't make a fan game out of their old products. Is that really the way to treat a loyal customer? Sometimes its just best as a company if they just looked the other way.

Also notice that it seems to be only Nintendo who is doing these practices. Other companies seem to be more reasonable and more in line with the consumer.



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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 23:09

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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 23:23

Also we may need to make the Zelda hacks work in progress thread private since we don't want big N jeopardizing anything.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Conn on Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 6:17

Actually you never have the legal right for hacking. Buying the orginal gives you the right to use it. But that's it. Maybe it would still be legaly acceptable for you to scan this cart for personal archive purposes, so you then also own the digital rom (not just the cart).
I'm not sure about this one, read several sources, one say it is your property and like you can use your edding pencil on a picasso you can also make a backup of your property (like copying a video tape) and yeah, modify it. Other claim Nintendo has a zero-tolerance policity and all their games are esa protected. Thus is it not allowed to make a backup and modify their property. This would mean that users of a patch are also not allowed to apply this on a copy of this game.

Hacking per se is fortunately not illegal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROM_hacking

The purpose of distributing a hack in patch form is to avoid the legal aspects of distributing entire ROM images; the patch records only what has changed in the ROM, hence distributing it does not usually distribute parts of the original game. A patch is also normally drastically smaller than the full ROM image (an NES ROM can run anywhere from 8 KB to 2 MB; a Super NES ROM can run from 256 kB to 6 MB). The use of patches does not eliminate copyright issues because the patches may be considered derivative works;[citation needed] however, corporations generally ignore them as long as they are not distributed with the ROMs.[citation needed]
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Conn on Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 14:04

I hope this idiocrazy is only because of the new mario course maker and will only affect mario related games and not zelda related games.



But yeah, maybe the big N some day comes to the idea to make profit out of Hyrule Magic (now that they "stole" Lunar Magic) Confused

You know, the reason why they go this hard way now, 25 years later, becomes quite clear: super mario hacks are mostly completely done using lunar magic. Nintendo tries to eradicate traces of this tool as they do not earn money with SM maker if people can use LM. It's just profit and merchandising logic. Sad... but true Sad
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 17:07

Mario Maker is a neat idea, but how custom can you get with it. Can you replace graphics with any other graphic? Like can I make Mario into Sonic? Can I code custom enemies and bosses? If the answer is no, then I don't see why it would be better than Lunar Magic. In my opinion I want full customization. If I can't change the mushroom graphic into a weed leaf graphic then I won't use it... period.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Trovsky on Sat 19 Sep 2015 - 11:07

That's an interesting script right there. Apparently YouTube figured that since many ROM hacks don't replace music, using music as a flag would be sufficient enough as opposed to just going by the title or video itself. That would explain why your videos with the MSU add-on don't get hit. I'm still curious about the rest of the script and if it creates false flags for videos that use Nintendo music.

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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Tompala on Sat 19 Sep 2015 - 16:32

Nintendo also used a clip from a Tool Assisted Speedrun in their E3 video promoting NWC15: https://youtu.be/zbvzyY1FKr0?t=81 taken from: https://youtu.be/8agz-TTwV14?t=2195

In that case, it doesn't matter if the original video is "illegal", because it was made by using a rom, but stealing the video and using it without permission or credit is in fact not legal to do. And at the same time they remove TASes from Youtube/Nicovideo. There's a lot of double moral and lack of sense in Nintendo's decision...

Conn wrote:I hope this idiocrazy is only because of the new mario course maker and will only affect mario related games and not zelda related games.
No, they have removed multiple videos for other franchies as well, such as the Zelda series. Nintendo's logic is basically the following: "Oh, people enjoy our games a lot, and the viewers seem to enjoy it too! We can't have that, let's remove the video."

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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Sat 19 Sep 2015 - 20:37

Here is the official response that Nintendo released on their website.

Nintendo wrote: All your video are belong to us.


Last edited by Erockbrox on Sun 20 Sep 2015 - 15:16; edited 1 time in total
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by SunGodPortal on Sat 19 Sep 2015 - 21:35

LMAO
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by qwertymodo on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 12:06

It's a complicated issue.  Technically, even releasing a patch can be illegal, because the patch can still include copyrighted content.  For example, because Zelda3 uses compressed graphics, if you modify the graphics and then create a patch, chances are that you've ended up modifying more of that compressed region than just the graphics you created, and your patch likely includes a lot of original graphics as well.  Or you have patches like the Star Ocean 96Mbit patch.  It includes essentially all of the graphics for the entire game in the patch.  Releasing patch-only is a good faith measure so that you can say that you did your best to not distribute copyrighted content, but that isn't necessarily always actually the case.

As far as the legality of the actual ROM hacking itself, that's also complicated.  Because there is no DRM on the cart, you are legally allowed to create a backup of your own carts.  However, owning a cart does not legally entitle you to go download that ROM off of the internet.  The act of possessing the ROM and the act of obtaining it are two separate things, and while you are legally allowed to possess it, you have to dump it yourself from your own cart.  Yes, it's stupid, but that's how it is.  Once the ROM is dumped, you can do what you want with it.  Throw it in a zip file, chop the file up into bits and save them into separate files, overwrite the whole thing with random numbers, delete it, who cares, the file is yours.  Or, you could do something more useful, like overwriting only certain parts of the file with data that just so happens to transform the game in fun and interesting ways.  Emulators themselves are legal, ROMs themselves are legal (but only as long as you legally obtained them), and ROM hacking is legal.  However, RELEASING the ROM hack definitely treads into gray areas, not only due to the patch potentially containing copyrighted data as I mentioned, but also simply due to the fact that you have created a derivative work out of copyrighted content, which gets tricky.

Beyond that, there are other classes of IP beyond copyright which fall under different rules.  Trademark is a big one that people don't tend to understand well. Characters such as Link and Mario are trademarked, and it's possible to infringe on that trademark even if the thing you created is entirely your own work.  And even more importantly, the way trademark IP law works, if they don't do everything they can to enforce their trademarks, they can literally lose them.  So go ahead and yell and scream and make an ass out of yourself like the guy in that YT video, but unfortunately, that's how the law works.  Don't blame Nintendo for that, blame our shitty IP laws.  Don't hate the player, hate the game.

(NB: This is all from the perspective of US copyright law, YMMV)
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Puzzledude on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 12:47

Emulators themselves are legal, and ROM hacking is legal.
Not really. Emulators themselves are illegal according to Nintendo, no matter how you have obtained them. You can not even have them, even if you made them. In fact they consider emus as the biggest threat to their industry.

Apparently it is also not allowed to even record your gameplay of playing a rom on the emu and upload the video to You tube. Not even TAS videos of original games are allowed.

Rom hacking also falls under grey area, so it can not be called legal just like that. In fact, it would be much more logical to call it illegal, no matter if you release the Rom or not.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by qwertymodo on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 13:48

Puzzledude wrote:
Emulators themselves are legal, and ROM hacking is legal.
Not really. Emulators themselves are illegal according to Nintendo, no matter how you have obtained them.

Doesn't matter what Nintendo says.  Nintendo doesn't make the law, and the law says otherwise.

Recording videos for Youtube is something that would have to be argued under Fair Use, and whether or not it would actually be ruled as protected under Fair Use is not for me to say. Again, just because Nintendo *says* it's illegal doesn't make it so.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 17:31

Regardless of what the actual law says what companies should do is do what makes sense.

For example look at the use of marijuana in the USA. Not long ago it was totally illegal except for medical proposes and other minor exceptions.

If you had weed on you and a police officer found it then you were in trouble.

But lets be honest here. There are many many many people in the USA who smoke weed and will smoke weed until the day they die regardless if its legal or not.  

Knowing this, it makes no sense to make weed illegal as a law in the USA because its simply downright stupid.

Now finally some states are making it okay to smoke weed. This is happening because it has to. People are not going to change and thus the law has to bend.

I think the same is true for rom hacking. It doesn't matter if its legal or not, the fact is people do it and you can't change nor stop it.

So what does a company do? Of course there probably isn't a general rule that works in all cases, but in my opinion probably the best thing to do as a company is simply just to look the other way.

The reason for this is because if Nintendo supported people making rom hacks then the hacks would have to be approved by Nintendo because of the content in the hacks.

Nintendo would never approve of High Rule Tail. So if a video game company can't disapprove of hacking nor can they approve of the hacks then what they really should do is just ignore them.

For a big company like Nintendo they should not be wasting their time and efforts cracking down on rom hacks at all. What they should be doing is focusing on new products and selling them.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by qwertymodo on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:40

Erockbrox wrote:For a big company like Nintendo they should not be wasting their time and efforts cracking down on rom hacks at all. What they should be doing is focusing on new products and selling them.

See Trademark Law. For a big company, it's not a waste of time, it's a legal requirement for them to actively protect their trademarks or they risk losing them.
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by Erockbrox on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 17:08

And how do you risk losing something that you own?
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Re: YouTube Taking Down ROMhacking Related Channels

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sat 3 Sep 2016 - 20:15

If I recall correctly, downloading roms is illegal even if you own the copy, but you are allowed to upload a personal rom on your own computer as long as you do not share it to anyone.

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