thoughts on speedruns

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Post by wizzrobemaster on Mon 23 Mar 2020 - 0:29

what is your thoughts on speedruns and the general community especially when using glitches?

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Post by Wolfcat on Mon 23 Mar 2020 - 4:34

I am not qualified to answer your question, but I have my own understandings. It depends on the legitimatesy of a speed run using glitches. One thing I understand is that if a competition for speed run is going on between people that glitches can be allowed if stated as being allowed, and perhaps some limitations on what glitches are allowed, but I know of nothing regarding any of this.

One of the few videos I've seen of a speed runner I liked was this one:
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past Speed Run in 1:27:29 by Jadin *#SGDQ 2013* [SNES]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhDHmnyqic8

I know that is the same guy I've seen, but I don't know if it is the same video.

I say legitimate because I recently saw this video:
The Worst Fake Speedrun on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFrQ1_2bbsI

I know a few glitches in alttp that can be used, like using the hookshot through spikes, using the hookshot through blocks while pushing them, using the hookshot to be invisible for a very short time during use but is tricky if it hits something and comes back too quickly, going through walls to get to somewhere ahead of time and so on.

Also, I remembering trying to do the hover glitch, but just like wall jumps in Super Metroid I failed. I mean with Super Metroid I was able to do wall jumps if I couldn't do bomb jumps, but both those are not glitches in Super Metroid. Maybe it's because I use an xbox 360 wireless controller and receiver with ZSNES, so who knows if it is me or because of my setup. I watched many videos on wall jumps to understand the timing, and even though I understood the timing, it was still near impossible for me, and I am a drummer, so I understand timing and I have been pretty fast at times, but who knows? Some days and moments I am better than other times in my life, so.

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Post by wizzrobemaster on Mon 23 Mar 2020 - 12:21

i am surprised z3 never had a legit hookshot through objects puzzle.  ironically the glitch allows for creative puzzles to occur such as in hylian legacy or gerudo exile. also ganon can be killed without the silver arrows for a greater challenge and allows you to skip rescuing the sword smithy and the super bomb. still, the speedruns that bother me are the ones where you perform a glitch that allows you to bypass every boss including the final battle. glitch challenges i cannot defend are bomb boosting in 2d zelda games or bomb hovering.

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Post by Wolfcat on Mon 23 Mar 2020 - 17:14

A long time ago I figured out how to bomb jump in alttp in Gannon's Tower in that room with bridge, cannon balls and bomb-able wall. I didn't know I could bunk to get there as well, but that is the only exception I know of in alttp that bomb jumps in my opinion could be allowed, but not required of coarse.

In Zelda 3 Parallel Worlds in the woods cave it is required to get through the game I thought, but I understand what you mean.

There was a part in that video of Jaden doing a bomb jump through to the big chest to get the hammer which I found impressive where he messed up the first time he attempted it. Like I said before it depends on what is allowed. As long as someone owns up to what they are showing and not lying then I consider it OK.

Like I said limitations could be set between players. So you could state that you don't want to compete against someone who does bomb jumps, no bomb jumps allowed and so on. I wonder if there are rules set for this.

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Post by Erockbrox on Mon 23 Mar 2020 - 20:56

i think speed runs are cool. Totally cool. However I have some gripes with them.

How are you really supposed to time your run? I know that timers exist, but then how do you know when to start your run and end your run time wise. I think time starts when you first take control of your character right? But how you know when this exactly happens ?

If the game has a built in timer for the speed run then I accept that. But a hand timer, I don't accept.

Also if you do a TAS and count the frames then I could that as a legit speedrun. But again the way to be able to time the run should be absolute with no margin of error.

Also cut-scenes and stuff are a gary area because sometimes people just use different versions of the game to skip those or faster text or whatever.

I actually think that all game developers should include a built in speed run option into their games so that you have the option to display a time on your screen. And that everyone would know that its the official way of doing it.

I recall some people back in the day would use a pocket watch to time there runs. I say no to that different watches tick differently. And why use TIME in the first place to measure these runs because as we all know by a smart physicist, time is relative. So you are using a relative quality to measure something. This is why I like measuring things in terms of frames or computer cycles.
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Post by Polargames on Mon 23 Mar 2020 - 23:42

I think speed runs are fine for the most part, The only thing that really bugs me is when TAS have the game done in an unrealistic time frame. https://youtu.be/TYbs1Nuke4o

This link has a video of a player that beat SMB in 5 mins, but the issues I have is at points of said game Mario hits bad guys and should of die, ( mario was small mario). TAS should not break the basic rules of game play. If you die at said point, then you start over, but that is just what I think. When it comes to that stuff, I do not like it because if you keep relaying on glitches to get further into the game besides the well known ones, then I do not count them as speed runs. I also agree with Erockbrox on the timer aspect also.

Now if your just wanted to have some fun then above statement at least for me do not count, its only when your trying to make a record that its bugs me because its not showing your true game skills, just that your good at fixing the game to boots your ego.
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Post by Erockbrox on Tue 24 Mar 2020 - 18:46

I don't mind TAS runs using glitches.

Different categories exist for glitch vs non glitch.

There are some TAS runs which glitch the game right to the game over screen. That is a work of art.
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Post by wizzrobemaster on Tue 24 Mar 2020 - 21:18

i personally think that finding some crazy glitch to skip the final boss should not count. now it is one thing to reach the final boss in an early way then that is another story.

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Post by Wolfcat on Tue 24 Mar 2020 - 22:09

As long as everyone viewing a video knows that a competition allows this glitch or these set of glitches or any glitch for a game, then I am totally cool with it. But as soon as someone releases a video that doesn't explain what is going on in a video for a record that involves glitch(s) and most people viewing are were misled on purpose then I am not cool with that.

They could be separated into categories so people who want to view non-glitch runs will know what they are viewing, but the Internet is a free for all mess, LOL. Sorry, it's not that I don't agree though with both sides, even though it sounds like I am picking sides.

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Post by wizzrobemaster on Wed 25 Mar 2020 - 19:41

i mean if there is a category for a glitch run to reaching the end credits fast enough, then that could be some kind of satirical run if you ask me.

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Post by Wolfcat on Wed 25 Mar 2020 - 23:16

I can't disagree with you for the most part.

A good example of what you are saying is a glitch speed run in alttp where the game can beat in about 5 minutes or less involving jumping off a ledge with the princess, saving and quitting then loading to be able to travel through the layers not meant to be traveled through.

A couple of examples that I was impressed with were one where in Zelda Ocarina of Time where the last battle can be jumped to through the Deku Tree dungeon which requires weird seemingly random sequences to get there.

And another glitch speed run where someone was traveling backward with a blindfold on through walls in the well in Kakariko Village.

Glitch(s) are either discovered by accident or using a computer to find them. Someone said they have used a computer to find glitch(s) in games.

So, my opinion is that it depends on the skill level and or discovery of the glitch(s) shown be someone.

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Post by wizzrobemaster on Thu 26 Mar 2020 - 21:23

i always find random glitches such as music changes in OoT and MM or in MM3D where all the textures disappeared in romani ranch. that was a cool glitch and sadly is difficult to replicate.

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