The difference between the MD+ and the MSU-MD

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Post by Retroplay Sat 29 Aug 2020 - 16:47

I see 32mbit upped two new MSU-MD to his Google drive (Super Hang-On & Ghouls 'n' Ghosts).
Unfortunately there's only audio tracks in the uploaded zips but no patches for the intended roms is anywhere to be found.

WIP or maybe he just forgot to include them ?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NvBmD3_BBim3AkxuzebMnrS15f_qxGzH
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Post by Relikk Sun 30 Aug 2020 - 15:13

It seems he hasn't officially released them, yet. There's nothing new about them on his Twitter since the last update about him still working on them.
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Post by PittStone Mon 31 Aug 2020 - 12:52

Retroplay wrote:I figured it out in Retroarch Genesis Plus GX.
The official nightly buildbot hasn't caught up with latest GenPlusGX source.

I built my own x86_64 libretro GX core and it's working now.
However, as I said earlier, Fusion doesn't like these and causes weird errors with invisible player sprites with CD audio playing.

You can grab the compatible MSU-MD core here for Retroarch.
https://mega.nz/folder/rgEVzAZK#uo-JSeS_abL94eE9xaNc6w

And How do i start the Game? Should i start the .md rom or the .cue file? In the .cue file are only the wav files, not the rom.
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Post by Retroplay Mon 31 Aug 2020 - 12:59

just load the rom.

Just make sure names are identical.
game.md
game.cue
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Post by PittStone Mon 31 Aug 2020 - 16:20

Retroplay wrote:just load the rom.

Just make sure names are identical.
game.md
game.cue

O.k. but if i start this Sonic the Hedgehog (USA, Europe) (Mode 1 Sega CD) [Team Evanesco] patched rom it crashes retroarch with this core. "Super Hang-On MSU-MD" starts but without music, its not a patched rom. Where the patches are?
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Post by Retroplay Mon 31 Aug 2020 - 17:19

Super Hang-On MSU-MD patch isn't out yet, only the audio pack.

Anyway, Sonic is working fine at my end, so don't know what the problem could be.
RA 1.9.0 + GenPlusGX 1.7.4 f8a8046
core (win64)
https://streamable.com/topvmn
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Post by darthvaderx Wed 16 Sep 2020 - 12:29

Oops, I have here Sonic, Moonwalker and Rock'n Roll Racing all MSU-MD with the tracks mounted, what can I do to contribute to the forum?

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Post by konradp Wed 25 Nov 2020 - 22:55

is there a guide on how to setup up any of the games .ips + cue + wavs + rom file on a everdrive pro?

thanks

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Post by Relikk Thu 26 Nov 2020 - 4:39

All of the MD+ patches that were released were converted by Krikzz for use on his cart. You can find those IPS patches at the link below. Any bug reports should be directed at Krikzz if you're using them.

https://github.com/krikzz/msu-md/tree/master/ips

You can use the audio files from the original release articles on Zeldix, but be aware that due to the limitations of MSU-MD there will be no seamless looping of audio tracks, and any games with non-concurrent track numbers will probably be buggy with regard to the audio (Ys III).

You only need to create a folder for your game and put your patched ROM, CUE and WAV files into that folder.
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Post by TheShadowRunner Sun 17 Jan 2021 - 21:26

So it seems atm MD+ (MegaSD) is still the superior format thanks to seamless loops. Is there anything else to consider ?

edit: hmm did anyone test this ?
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Post by Retroplay Wed 10 Feb 2021 - 18:37

Oh man, the loop limitations of MSU-MD is starting to frustrate me.
Why oh why, Krikzz, didn't you implement proper MD+ support. Ohmygod

I assume MD+, just like MSU-1, support looping to a specific point in the wav, right ?
For instance, if a track has an intro/opening only heard once the first time the track is played, then at the end it loops back to a specific sample point, skipping the opening, for seamless playback.

To demonstrate what I mean, the Amiga music pack I did for Top Gear 2 does this.
https://www.zeldix.net/t803-top-gear-2
Title music from Jaguar XJ220 (Amiga), it has an opening only heard once during playback of the track.
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Post by Relikk Wed 10 Feb 2021 - 18:51

Retroplay wrote:I assume MD+, just like MSU-1, support looping to a specific point in the wav, right ?

Yes, it's exactly the same concept for MD+ and has the same effect. It's just performed a little differently.

Krikzz's latest firmware seems to have people thinking MSU-MD is now capable of "seamless" loops, but I don't know much about it. Some of ArcadeTV's latest patches say they are loop capable, but I'm not seeing where the loop points are specified. If they're baked into the patch or in his MSU driver then that'd be silly as it locks out any other audio packs being used in the same way.
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Post by Retroplay Wed 10 Feb 2021 - 20:29

Seamless yes, but only from the beginning of a wav, not from a specific sample point in it. Sad
That's what is causing me some major headaches right now. Smile

I really hope Eke-Eke will update Genesis Plus GX to support MD+ at some point, now that the header business seems to be the "cure" to distinguish between the formats.

Quick question, which format does MD+ expect loop point specified in ?
See this sample I'm working on, I specified loop in samples, I'm not sure that's what MD+ expects ?
https://mega.nz/file/30dlXYyZ#QtOIhY0TDAgJxhbbTw50q9W7SY2_97aTd29ZE91jqvA
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Post by Relikk Thu 11 Feb 2021 - 5:03

Retroplay wrote:Seamless yes, but only from the beginning of a wav, not from a specific sample point in it.

Good luck to anyone getting arranged music that is as identical at the cut off point as it is at the start of the track. Otherwise it'd be useless/messy and not really as seamless as it should be.

EDIT: I see from your MSU-MD test track that you understood that problem already.

Retroplay wrote:Quick question, which format does MD+ expect loop point specified in ?
See this sample I'm working on, I specified loop in samples, I'm not sure that's what MD+ expects ?
https://mega.nz/file/30dlXYyZ#QtOIhY0TDAgJxhbbTw50q9W7SY2_97aTd29ZE91jqvA

Loops are specified with sectors (absolute, not fractional) rather than samples. A sector on a CD is 1/75th of a second, or every 588 samples, and they're specified in the CUE sheet with a LOOP command. If you look in any of the MD+ CUE sheets that I've done you can see it under the track time indexes. REM LOOP "sector value", or the self-explanatory REM NOLOOP. Track loops being specified in the CUE sheet gives the author great flexibility, as opposed to MSU1 where the determination of whether the track loops or not is baked-in to the patch, but thankfully there you can just loop silence if you need to with the PCM.

Using the last two OutRun tracks as an example:

FILE "3-PassingBreeze.wav" WAVE
 TRACK 03 AUDIO
   INDEX 01 00:00:00
   REM LOOP 21837
FILE "4-LastWave.wav" WAVE
 TRACK 04 AUDIO
   INDEX 01 00:00:00
   REM NOLOOP


Sectors: Standard red book audio is 16-bit/44.1kHz, so 44,100 samples per second, every sector is 1/75th of a second... 44,100/75 = 588 samples. Whilst it doesn't sound like it can be as accurate as a specific sample value like MSU1 PCMs with that much of a difference in samples, there are ways around it.

For your MD+ test track your loop point in samples is 1,413,671. In sectors that's 2,404.201. So, as I was saying earlier it can't be fractional, the .201 has to go. It has to be an absolute value like 2404 (1,413,552 samples, a difference of -119 samples). With that you've lost your zero crossover at the loop point, but again there are ways around that. What I would do there, seeing as it's so close to the 2404 sector, is remove 119 samples of silence at the very start of the track to compensate, thus bringing the sector value back to the exact 2404 value at your original loop point.
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Post by Retroplay Thu 11 Feb 2021 - 11:25

Great info, thanks Very Happy
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Post by Alecfoo Sat 8 Jan 2022 - 18:29

Thanks for the explanation as it could be confusing. Smile
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Post by Relikk Fri 24 Jun 2022 - 13:52

As of the latest firmware update for the Mega Everdrive Pro, it appears Krikzz implemented MD+. This is good news. Everyone wins.

https://twitter.com/krikzz/status/1540370246888038401

https://krikzz.com/pub/support/mega-everdrive/pro-series/OS/changelog.txt
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Post by Retroplay Fri 24 Jun 2022 - 15:47

He should have done that to begin with instead of re-inventing the wheel. Very Happy
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Post by Cubear Sat 25 Jun 2022 - 10:40

Better late than never!
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Post by jerrymh Wed 29 Jun 2022 - 22:19

Retroplay wrote:He should have done that to begin with instead of re-inventing the wheel. Very Happy

But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.
He should have added both formats from the beginning.

I hope this will cause more programmers to release more patches.

jerrymh
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Post by pepillopev Wed 29 Jun 2022 - 23:03

jerrymh wrote:But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.
Personally, MD+ was never meant to be backwards compatible with Sega CD. MD+ was meant to enjoy higher fidelity music without the bottleneck of old CD tech (ie, seek times, 640-700MB size limitation). MD+ seamless loop is nice and helps save tons of storage space. MD+ also has the ability to stream data from the SD card in much the same way as MSU-1. At this point no one has exploited this MD+ feature yet. Well, I cannot deny this format was also meant to be a MegaSD selling point too. But then again, it was open source, even though there are still many that claim it is not. But that is an argument for another day.

I do respect the intended point of MSU-MD and the thought process behind it. There are individuals that want to keep things as close to those retro times. MD+ is more of moving forward approach and enjoying the new tech benefits provided to the end user. That is what matters overall. The end user experience.

In the end, I am glad both formats are supported on both flash carts. Even though, MegaSD supported both from the very beginning (albeit a header modification).

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Post by pepillopev Wed 29 Jun 2022 - 23:20

jerrymh wrote:I hope this will encourage programmers o release more patches.
This has nothing to do with MSU-MD or MD+. This falls upon the finding a good debugger. Much like SGDK, which is very good in its own right and helping immensely with all these new indie games. All the debugging tools now are not that user friendly. Sure, they get the job done, but its antiquated.

For now, the old guard that is used to these tools, are the only ones that will provide new patches, if they feel like it. Or some brave new souls that have the patience to deal with these tools. I see the current debuggers in much the same way as Snes9x Geiger. It can get the job done, just not intuitive to use for the layman.

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Post by Relikk Thu 30 Jun 2022 - 7:32

jerrymh wrote:But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.

So did Mode 1 before it. I think that's what Retroplay was alluding to.

Anyway, as should be the case from now on, MSU-MD should really only be used in situations where there's no Mega Everdrive Pro involved, as it's pointless to have a CD unit attached in that scenario. MSU-MD is useful is where there's only an X series cart in play, then you need the CD unit.

Mega Everdrive Pro = use MD+.
Everdrive X3, X5, X7 and CD unit = use MSU-MD because it's the only option.
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