The difference between the MD+ and the MSU-MD

I see 32mbit upped two new MSU-MD to his Google drive (Super Hang-On & Ghouls 'n' Ghosts).
Unfortunately there's only audio tracks in the uploaded zips but no patches for the intended roms is anywhere to be found.

WIP or maybe he just forgot to include them ?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NvBmD3_BBim3AkxuzebMnrS15f_qxGzH

It seems he hasn't officially released them, yet. There's nothing new about them on his Twitter since the last update about him still working on them.

Retroplay wrote:I figured it out in Retroarch Genesis Plus GX.
The official nightly buildbot hasn't caught up with latest GenPlusGX source.

I built my own x86_64 libretro GX core and it's working now.
However, as I said earlier, Fusion doesn't like these and causes weird errors with invisible player sprites with CD audio playing.

You can grab the compatible MSU-MD core here for Retroarch.
https://mega.nz/folder/rgEVzAZK#uo-JSeS_abL94eE9xaNc6w

And How do i start the Game? Should i start the .md rom or the .cue file? In the .cue file are only the wav files, not the rom.

just load the rom.

Just make sure names are identical.
game.md
game.cue

Retroplay wrote:just load the rom.

Just make sure names are identical.
game.md
game.cue

O.k. but if i start this Sonic the Hedgehog (USA, Europe) (Mode 1 Sega CD) [Team Evanesco] patched rom it crashes retroarch with this core. "Super Hang-On MSU-MD" starts but without music, its not a patched rom. Where the patches are?

Super Hang-On MSU-MD patch isn't out yet, only the audio pack.

Anyway, Sonic is working fine at my end, so don't know what the problem could be.
RA 1.9.0 + GenPlusGX 1.7.4 f8a8046
core (win64)
https://streamable.com/topvmn

Oops, I have here Sonic, Moonwalker and Rock'n Roll Racing all MSU-MD with the tracks mounted, what can I do to contribute to the forum?

is there a guide on how to setup up any of the games .ips + cue + wavs + rom file on a everdrive pro?

thanks

All of the MD+ patches that were released were converted by Krikzz for use on his cart. You can find those IPS patches at the link below. Any bug reports should be directed at Krikzz if you're using them.

https://github.com/krikzz/msu-md/tree/master/ips

You can use the audio files from the original release articles on Zeldix, but be aware that due to the limitations of MSU-MD there will be no seamless looping of audio tracks, and any games with non-concurrent track numbers will probably be buggy with regard to the audio (Ys III).

You only need to create a folder for your game and put your patched ROM, CUE and WAV files into that folder.

So it seems atm MD+ (MegaSD) is still the superior format thanks to seamless loops. Is there anything else to consider ?

edit: hmm did anyone test this ?

Oh man, the loop limitations of MSU-MD is starting to frustrate me.
Why oh why, Krikzz, didn't you implement proper MD+ support.

I assume MD+, just like MSU-1, support looping to a specific point in the wav, right ?
For instance, if a track has an intro/opening only heard once the first time the track is played, then at the end it loops back to a specific sample point, skipping the opening, for seamless playback.

To demonstrate what I mean, the Amiga music pack I did for Top Gear 2 does this.
https://www.zeldix.net/t803-top-gear-2
Title music from Jaguar XJ220 (Amiga), it has an opening only heard once during playback of the track.

Retroplay wrote:I assume MD+, just like MSU-1, support looping to a specific point in the wav, right ?

Yes, it's exactly the same concept for MD+ and has the same effect. It's just performed a little differently.

Krikzz's latest firmware seems to have people thinking MSU-MD is now capable of "seamless" loops, but I don't know much about it. Some of ArcadeTV's latest patches say they are loop capable, but I'm not seeing where the loop points are specified. If they're baked into the patch or in his MSU driver then that'd be silly as it locks out any other audio packs being used in the same way.

Seamless yes, but only from the beginning of a wav, not from a specific sample point in it.
That's what is causing me some major headaches right now.

I really hope Eke-Eke will update Genesis Plus GX to support MD+ at some point, now that the header business seems to be the "cure" to distinguish between the formats.

Quick question, which format does MD+ expect loop point specified in ?
See this sample I'm working on, I specified loop in samples, I'm not sure that's what MD+ expects ?
https://mega.nz/file/30dlXYyZ#QtOIhY0TDAgJxhbbTw50q9W7SY2_97aTd29ZE91jqvA

Retroplay wrote:Seamless yes, but only from the beginning of a wav, not from a specific sample point in it.

Good luck to anyone getting arranged music that is as identical at the cut off point as it is at the start of the track. Otherwise it'd be useless/messy and not really as seamless as it should be.

EDIT: I see from your MSU-MD test track that you understood that problem already.

Retroplay wrote:Quick question, which format does MD+ expect loop point specified in ?
See this sample I'm working on, I specified loop in samples, I'm not sure that's what MD+ expects ?
https://mega.nz/file/30dlXYyZ#QtOIhY0TDAgJxhbbTw50q9W7SY2_97aTd29ZE91jqvA

Loops are specified with sectors (absolute, not fractional) rather than samples. A sector on a CD is 1/75th of a second, or every 588 samples, and they're specified in the CUE sheet with a LOOP command. If you look in any of the MD+ CUE sheets that I've done you can see it under the track time indexes. REM LOOP "sector value", or the self-explanatory REM NOLOOP. Track loops being specified in the CUE sheet gives the author great flexibility, as opposed to MSU1 where the determination of whether the track loops or not is baked-in to the patch, but thankfully there you can just loop silence if you need to with the PCM.

Using the last two OutRun tracks as an example:

FILE "3-PassingBreeze.wav" WAVE
 TRACK 03 AUDIO
   INDEX 01 00:00:00
   REM LOOP 21837
FILE "4-LastWave.wav" WAVE
 TRACK 04 AUDIO
   INDEX 01 00:00:00
   REM NOLOOP

Sectors: Standard red book audio is 16-bit/44.1kHz, so 44,100 samples per second, every sector is 1/75th of a second... 44,100/75 = 588 samples. Whilst it doesn't sound like it can be as accurate as a specific sample value like MSU1 PCMs with that much of a difference in samples, there are ways around it.

For your MD+ test track your loop point in samples is 1,413,671. In sectors that's 2,404.201. So, as I was saying earlier it can't be fractional, the .201 has to go. It has to be an absolute value like 2404 (1,413,552 samples, a difference of -119 samples). With that you've lost your zero crossover at the loop point, but again there are ways around that. What I would do there, seeing as it's so close to the 2404 sector, is remove 119 samples of silence at the very start of the track to compensate, thus bringing the sector value back to the exact 2404 value at your original loop point.

Great info, thanks

Thanks for the explanation as it could be confusing.

As of the latest firmware update for the Mega Everdrive Pro, it appears Krikzz implemented MD+. This is good news. Everyone wins.

https://twitter.com/krikzz/status/1540370246888038401

https://krikzz.com/pub/support/mega-everdrive/pro-series/OS/changelog.txt

He should have done that to begin with instead of re-inventing the wheel.

Better late than never!

Retroplay wrote:He should have done that to begin with instead of re-inventing the wheel.

But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.
He should have added both formats from the beginning.

I hope this will cause more programmers to release more patches.

jerrymh wrote:But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.

Personally, MD+ was never meant to be backwards compatible with Sega CD. MD+ was meant to enjoy higher fidelity music without the bottleneck of old CD tech (ie, seek times, 640-700MB size limitation). MD+ seamless loop is nice and helps save tons of storage space. MD+ also has the ability to stream data from the SD card in much the same way as MSU-1. At this point no one has exploited this MD+ feature yet. Well, I cannot deny this format was also meant to be a MegaSD selling point too. But then again, it was open source, even though there are still many that claim it is not.

I do respect the intended point of MSU-MD and the thought process behind it. There are individuals that want to keep things as close to those retro times. MD+ is more of moving forward approach and enjoying the new tech benefits provided to the end user. That is what matters overall. The end user experience. It works, and it works very well.

In the end, I am glad both formats are supported on both flash carts. Even though, MegaSD supported both from the very beginning.

jerrymh wrote:I hope this will encourage programmers o release more patches.

This has nothing to do with MSU-MD or MD+. This falls upon the finding a good debugger. Much like SGDK, which is very good in its own right and helping immensely with all these new indie games. All the debugging tools now are not that user friendly. Sure, they get the job done, but they're antiquated. What we need is a BSNES type debugger for a Genesis emulator.

For now, the old guard that is used to these tools, are the only ones that will provide new patches, if they feel like it. Or some brave new souls that have the patience to deal with these tools. I see the current debuggers in much the same way as Snes9x Geiger. It can get the job done, just not intuitive to use for the layman.

jerrymh wrote:But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.

So did Mode 1 before it. I think that's what Retroplay was alluding to.

Anyway, as should be the case from now on, MSU-MD should really only be used in situations where there's no Pro version of the Mega Everdrive involved, as it's pointless (and potentially damaging because of bus conflicts) to have a CD unit attached if you do have a Pro or a MegaSD. Where MSU-MD is useful is where there's only an X series Mega Everdrive in play, then you need the CD unit.

MD+ is the superior option in every way if you have a flash cart or emulator that's capable of it. True seamless looping of audio and no seek time delays because of the need for bloated "CD drivers" taking up precious ROM space, which makes MSU-MD hacks for larger games much more difficult or next to impossible (Xeno Crisis & Super Street Fighter II). Overall MD+ is snappier, has better space savings because of smaller audio files, has a more elegant solution to specifying track looping as it's purely done via the CUE file and it's not baked into the patch or audio files like MSU1 patches and PCM's. It's just a more quality standard across the board with regards to dealing with audio.

MegaSD, Mega Everdrive Pro & Genesis Plus GX = forget MSU-MD versions of hacks and use MD+ regardless.
Everdrive X3, X5, X7 and CD unit = use MSU-MD and a burned CD because it's the only option.

Hopefully someone ports MD+ to MiSTer, also. Sooner, rather than later.

pepillopev wrote:

jerrymh wrote:But MSU-MD works with sega cd and MD+ don't.

Personally, MD+ was never meant to be backwards compatible with Sega CD. MD+ was meant to enjoy higher fidelity music without the bottleneck of old CD tech (ie, seek times, 640-700MB size limitation). MD+ seamless loop is nice and helps save tons of storage space. MD+ also has the ability to stream data from the SD card in much the same way as MSU-1. At this point no one has exploited this MD+ feature yet. Well, I cannot deny this format was also meant to be a MegaSD selling point too. But then again, it was open source, even though there are still many that claim it is not.

I do respect the intended point of MSU-MD and the thought process behind it. There are individuals that want to keep things as close to those retro times. MD+ is more of moving forward approach and enjoying the new tech benefits provided to the end user. That is what matters overall. The end user experience. It works, and it works very well.

In the end, I am glad both formats are supported on both flash carts. Even though, MegaSD supported both from the very beginning.

Now in genesis plus GX there is an option to disable seek times. i asked the author some months ago about adding it:

https://github.com/ekeeke/Genesis-Plus-GX/issues/421


The thing is that, there isnt a lot of people making patches. Even there isnt a lot of people porting msu-md patches to md+ (the sonic patch for example, the md+ version was never made).

Im not saying that people have the obligation to make them, only that there are a lot of mode 1 or msu-md patches that will be the only option to play with cd quality music for a looong time until someone make a md+ version for that specific game. So im just happy of the existence of patches, md+ or mode1 or msu-md, i dont care which.
And since ArcadeTV burned out, the pace of releases is super slow now.