Prepping ROM for HM

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Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SunGodPortal on Fri 22 May 2015 - 3:18

I've been exploring the site for a while and have occasionally come across docs such as this:

Code:
****************************************
Empty string for debugging bugged items
****************************************

Paste (+overwrite) this string (5A3 long) at DC2F9 in hex to actually remove all items. This will clear the code, so you can start adding items in the overworld. The remove all in HM doesn not do this, but simply repoints the pointers. The data is still there, and there is no more rooms for items, the result are bugs (items start respawning all over the place). Remove all will of course not remove them, but this lower code will.


Important:
First go to 17FA8, and change the values to F9 C3 (the old values in Alttp were 94 C8), This is the value of the last 2 byte pointer. If you dont do this, HM will always tell you, no room for items, because the default value is to big (for all areas filled with items).


---------
Note: if you are using the very original Alttp (not ever saved with HM), you must first open it in HM, and save the game, despite no changes. This is the so called initial save (HM will adopt the rom), making the 17FA0 segment filled with new code. Original Alttp (with no initial save in HM) has this area empty (FF bytes).
---------

Then go to DC2F9 and copy/rewrite the lower code (5A3 long)

F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 F9 C3 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF


NOTE: If you put an item like heart (type 0B) under the bush, it will NOT always appear! The game is smart enough not to give you the item, so that it fells like it is random for the player. The bushes can also contain random sprites, like soldier in light world or jumping skull in the dark world.


So if you put items like heart, bomb etc under bushes, only the probability of this item under this bush is achieved, or better said, the probability rises. The bush can still be empty! Just note, that the default item is as seen in Hyrule Magic.


Only items like: hole, bombable, staircase (under big rock) and warp (under small rock) always work. Bombable and staircase work only once, then a fixed overlay is put over it (crack wall, or staircase over the big rock).

I usually start by expanding the ROM to 2MB and move the room header data to 120000. What other things should be done to get a ROM in the best condition possible for editing in HM? Knowing to do some of these things right from the beginning would save some headaches.

Perhaps there should be a section or doc specifically covering this somewhere in the forum. And I mean ALL of it in one place and reasonably organized, not scattered everywhere in docs and posts.

A patch would actually be best. Hacking this game is a major undertaking so perhaps things like this could be done to encourage more people to stick with it rather than giving it all up after about 2-3 weeks and going to hack a Mario game instead.

Not only that, but why is there no section of this site dedicated to HM bugs? It's not like those problems are going away any time soon. Or ever really.
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SunGodPortal
                             
                             

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by Puzzledude on Fri 22 May 2015 - 6:44

prepping the rom for HM
It was my idea all the time to make such a rom, but it is close to impossible if you start from the original Alttp, since the number of edits would have to be enormous (specially removing all overworld overlays and similar). I might come up with such a rom someday based on the Gates of Darkness Demo (but rather "emptied out"), which has a lot of such "debugs" already done.

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SunGodPortal on Fri 22 May 2015 - 15:12

In that case, a guide would be still be helpful. Even a checklist. As it is, Zelda III hacking is a very inaccessable hobby. Lots of people who would otherwise make cool games give up on it because they can't keep their ROM from becoming spaghetti.

If I had the knowledge to do this I would and of course if no one else does, I will. With there only being Hyrule Magic it's pretty much a necessity. But right now I've only been doing this for a couple of months. I don't have the intimate knowledge of the game's data and HM the way some of you guys would who have been working with this game for years and have done incredibly extensive hacks of it.

I would almost suggest making a "beginners" section of the site or some kind of introductory doc. Let me tell you from my experience: When I first started out hacking this game the compendium and docs section of this site were next to useless. They're great once you've been working with the game for a while, but in the beginning it's just too much information, too much foreign information and it is not organized in fashion that feels accessible to a Z3 hacking noob. It's like needing a copy of a few pages but having to look through an entire library that could be better organized.

Perfect example: I recently got bitten by the monologue bug. It was a simple fix, but how was I to have ANY idea that that fix was contained in one of the docs around here without reading through the entire thing first? I couldn't and I didn't so I had to come here have you guys babyset me again. LOL I copy/pasted it into my notes but right now I can't remember where I got it so if I lost my notes I might have to read through everything on the site. Posts and docs.

If anyone did want to do something like this (whether it be reorganizing the library or making a beginniners ROM) I don't know how I could be useful but I would be 100% willing to put time and effort into something like this. I didn't come here just because I was bored one day. Even though I'm the ultimate pessimist I would like to see this scene thrive but the fact is, the learning curve for hacking this game is infinitly more steep because there is only Hyrule Magic and Black Magic is just a pie in the sky.

It isn't helping anything if the new people walking through the door immediately have to step on nails and broken glass and are tripping up because the lights are flickering and there are books lying everywhere. Someone should clean this scene up, you know? There are plenty of dedicated people here. Perhaps we should all brainstorm on how to make the entryway a little more accessible (assuming that we can all agree that this is an important issue).

Wow. That's was a lot longer than I thought it would be. Very Happy
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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 23 May 2015 - 9:24

These 2 documents are somehow mandatory for you to read:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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I have them printed out. And they are also under "sticky" so someone can find them quicker.

Unfortunately documents were written by (non)beginners and thus we can not know, how beginners would think.

When I started with this, I've first read this:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So the hole trinity for any beginner should be to at least read this, before attempting anything:
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All the knowledge that we currently have on the game is supposed to make it into the Zelda3 Compendium. So you might want to change this massive document into the "beginners version" to fulfill your idea of a document for beginners. Unfortunately Z3 modding requires more intelect and is in fact not suitable for beginners (specially if they combine the original Alttp and HM).

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SePH on Sat 23 May 2015 - 14:12

I'll post my .doc file of the compendium if I think about it later tonight.

Feel free to update it and make it more user friendly.

I most probably will retire after making my hack so if someone else like you SGP that would update the compendium I'd be mostly grateful.

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SunGodPortal on Sat 23 May 2015 - 14:44

Yeah I know it's not for beginners. Most hacking isn't. I guess my main point here is that I think we should do something to make it easier in the beginning for people that don't have superhuman patience and intellect.

I mean what good would it do to welcome someone into the community and then after a few weeks/months (assuming they survive this long) say "Oh, well you should have done this before doing anything else" because that's pretty much the way it is concerning items, treasure contents, ROM expansion, relocating room header data etc. That's what I'm talking about. And to go back to your previous comment, removing all overworld overlays is just nitpicking. That's completely unnecessary for a hack like BCvsG or Puzzledude's Quest.

(specially if they combine the original Alttp and HM)

I know this is just going to sound hostile... but what the f**k do you expect them to do? Seriously! Isn't that what HM was MADE for? It doesn't come with it's own ROM. You know this just as well as I do.

I'll post my .doc file of the compendium if I think about it later tonight.

Feel free to update it and make it more user friendly.

I most probably will retire after making my hack so if someone else like you SGP that would update the compendium I'd be mostly grateful.

Cool. For one thing I would suggest splitting it up into volumes of some sort. Maybe like an introdution, some tutorials and then another that's just technical data. You could say that it is already somewhat like this but I think it should be further separated into categories such as this. Maybe even turned into it's own website to make navigation easier but still have a downloadable version.
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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 23 May 2015 - 16:12

I mean what good would it do to welcome someone into the community and then after a few weeks/months (assuming they survive this long) say "Oh, well you should have done this before doing anything else".

I know this is just going to sound hostile... but what the f**k do you expect them to do? Seriously! Isn't that what HM was MADE for? It doesn't come with it's own ROM. You know this just as well as I do.

There's no need or the reason for such a tone,

and there is no rule on what you should do or not do first and what after.

And what message would I send to the beginners: Don't hack this game, because the editor was made by a slacker, who thinks he can make editing programs and messed it up so severely, that it should be called Hyrule Butchering instead of Magic. And that you will need magic to debug it after as much as 100 saves, and that certain commands of the program are completely out of the question to use.

Yes, HM was MADE for that, but it fails severely for the purpose it was made for. No editor, no hacking. Or: use at your own risk. No matter what anyone does, the beginner will be out of luck eventually, unless he is able to transform into a non-beginner.

Any beginner can, however, come up with the so called Master Quest of the game, without damaging the rom to much. That's the only thing HM can be used for.

You also have other options like gfx editing, hex editing and ASM coding, which don't require that bugged program, but again all the three are at least intermediate (again not for beginners).

PS
If you think about it... why do you want to open Alttp original in HM. What's preventing you from opening Lira Islands (Demo), Gates of Darkness Demo, Shards of Might demo, Goddess of Wisdom etc etc. All of these ROMs are a much better base Roms than Alttp and a lot more cleaner, more prepared for HM and will produce less bugs when edited. (And they already have some new gfx already inserted).

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SePH on Sat 23 May 2015 - 16:22

Well I had the idea to split it into multiple volumes but eventually combined them back into one massive file I would call the defenitive Zelda 3 hacking bible.

But you're right that it should probably be split into multiple volumes.

Like:

A beginners introduction to Zelda 3 hacking
Advanced stuff.
Things that you can change in hex...

Etc...

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SunGodPortal on Sat 23 May 2015 - 19:58

There's no need or the reason for such a tone,

and there is no rule on what you should do or not do first and what after.

hahaha Yeah, sorry about the tone. Up until now I've been struggling to keep my cool because 1) I was still a little annoyed about last night's censorship and 2) my mood keeps ping-ponging because I just quit smoking (nicotine is the devil). It was great to see more emotion from you though. You seemed genuinely annoyed whereas many of your comments feel very cold and robotic to me. LOL "And that you will need magic to debug it after as much as 100 saves..." I loved that part. That's actually a good joke (whether it was intended or not). This is great. I was depressed just a second ago but that just completely changed. Thanks Puzzledude. You just saved the day.
Very Happy

Before we get side-tracked by any misunderstandings (and perhaps my lack of "people skills") let it be known that I came into this conversation with the understanding that this site is here to help people who want to make Zelda III hacks. I also assumed that most if not all of us here would like to see this "scene" thrive. Most, if not everyone here has been incredibly helpful. Especially you PD. It seems that 9 times out of 10, when I have a question that needs to be answered, you are the one who either answers it for me or points me in the right direction. I greatly appreciate that and don't wish to sound ungrateful (even though I probably already have). In fact, if not for your help I wouldn't still be here (is that a blessing or a curse? LOL).

No matter what anyone does, the beginner will be out of luck eventually, unless he is able to transform into a non-beginner.

That's actually the focus here and since I'm probably still in the middle of this transition as we speak I can understand exactly how important this is. There are probably a lot of people who want to get into hacking this game and could probably offer a lot to the scene, in time. BUT, if they feel the urge to turn and run away right off the bat (for obvious reasons), no one is any better off and we will all be missing out in the long run. There's enough knowledge contained in this site and within it's users to make the path from beginner to intermediate much smoother. That's what I'd like to do.

PS
If you think about it... why do you want to open Alttp original in HM. What's preventing you from opening Lira Islands (Demo), Gates of Darkness Demo, Shards of Might demo, Goddess of Wisdom etc etc. All of these ROMs are a much better base Roms than Alttp and a lot more cleaner, more prepared for HM and will produce less bugs when edited. (And they already have some new gfx already inserted).

First of all, this isn't only about me. I could benefit from this but I'm more concerned with the community here. You make a very good point though. But the thing is, people want to make their OWN mark, not someone else's. If most people who come into this are like me, the first thing they think of is making their OWN game and are unaware of just how difficult HM is to use and are also unaware that building their hack on top of one of those mentioned would be deemed acceptable. I didn't want to use anyone else's stuff at first because that seemed a little cheesy if not an outright "faux pas". Kind of an ironic attitude for hacking, I guess but I'm sure I'm not the only one who comes into it with this perspective. I kept thinking "if I steal other hacker's work that won't do my reputation any favors and one of these days I might need help from some of these authors".

So anyway... Here's what I'm suggesting for now and it would probably best be if all interested parties (whether you want to be actively involved or just contribute ideas) brainstormed on this.

-a section of the site or introductory doc stating something like "Introduction to Zelda III hacking. Read this or you will be sorry". The message is clear and obvious. Just shoving a bunch of docs loaded with technical data in someone's face is not a "user friendly" approach. Unless someone has ROM hacking experience or until they are experienced with working on this game it won't mean anything to them. Though it is very helpful, I found even the Compendium to be a little intimidating at first. I think it's just too much information to comb through until you reach a certain experience level.

-the docs and tutorials should be cleaned up and reorganized. Things concerning graphics should be in a graphics category. Things about overworld editing should be in an overworld category. Etc.

Well, it looks like I'm writing a book here so I'm going to take a break and let everyone take this in.
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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SePH on Sat 23 May 2015 - 20:08

Sent you the compendium via pm!

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SunGodPortal on Sat 23 May 2015 - 20:44

Thanks. Got your PM and responded. Here's another idea:

-split the compendium into at least two volumes, one for absolute beginners and another geared more towards everyone that has moved beyond that level. as I mentioned previously, there's just too much information in the current version. it's cumbersum.
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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SePH on Sat 23 May 2015 - 21:14

Good idea.

I know there might be too much information in one volume, especially for beginners.

The introduction to Hyrule Magic by sorlokleves(?) could probably be used partially but re-written in a more friendly approach since it's still complicated enough.

One way would be to at least describe how I actually build my overworlds/dungeons with examples...another way would be to do both that and share youtube videos of the actual process with awesome voiceacting by ErockBrox  (I'd pay for that manual)

*just joking ~ no money offering involved here*

But I'd still pay for it in a Parallel Universe!

In short, there's no easy way to start up this beginners guide on my part, my mind is currently set elsewhere contemplating my basement starring at my computer screen re-playing world of warcraft (again for the zillionth time), sinking more time in that and taking a small Zelda 3 break...


Last edited by હેદρમ on Sun 24 May 2015 - 0:21; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Prepping ROM for HM

Post by SunGodPortal on Sat 23 May 2015 - 23:49

The introduction to Hyrule Magic by sorlokleves(?) could probably be used partially but re-written in a more friendly approach since it's still complicated enough.

Yeah I forgot about those. They were a huge help in getting me to understand the peculiar way the dungeons are constructed (like the layers and stuff). I'd be willing to write some tutorials for whatever I can as well. For example, one of the first things I did when I started working on this game was to redesign the lead character. I've also swapped the main character sprites and corresponding palettes between many different ROMs. I have plenty of notes on this sort of thing and there's lots of little clever solutions I had to come up with along the way. Perhaps I could also make and upload patches of these as well.

I'm also in the process of replacing the instrument samples and intend to rearrange/replace most likely all of the music with alternate versions in a completely different style. I'll admit that's pretty ambitious. The good thing though is that while I'm relatively new to hacking, I'm anything but new to music. 20+ years experience playing and at least 10 years studying music theory (the "science" of music) on my own. Some good tutorials could come from that.
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