Disable bomb damage in PW?

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Disable bomb damage in PW?

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Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by qwertymodo on Mon 30 May 2016 - 2:53

Ok, so I had another balance-related idea for PW.  Conn provided the code to disable damage to Link from bombs, while still retaining knock-back.  I feel like that would be a nice compromise in PW for all of the bomb jumping you have to do.  You'd still take damage from falling into a pit if you miss, but it wouldn't be doubled by the bomb damage plus the fall damage.  Thoughts?

Euclid, it's your hack, how would you feel about this? Personally, I like the idea of smoothing off the difficulty curve a bit, like with the L0 sword stun, but I also know some people like the difficulty level, so I'm looking for feedback.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Conn on Mon 30 May 2016 - 3:39

I think it fits with the overall difficulty of the game... what do you think about the compromise to apply this patch to Puzz's remodel but leave original PW with this damage?
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by SunGodPortal on Mon 30 May 2016 - 4:11

I'd recommend disabling the bomb damage, yes. That's what I'm doing in the new Bruce Campbell because to have bomb damage in a game that requires bomb jumping is a bit unfair. Especially since there are also spike jumps.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by qwertymodo on Mon 30 May 2016 - 4:20

The reason I bring it up is that when I hear people complain about PW's difficulty, 9 times out of 10 it's either 1) The Guardhouse 2) The Tower or 3) bomb jumps

Plus, one thing that's important to me is being able to play the game through "legitimately" i.e. real hardware, no save states, no cheats. So far in my LP, the only time I've broken that rule is in the Halls of Pain. Without bomb damage, it still would've taken me 6 tries, but the important thing is that it wouldn't have taken me 6 trips to go collect fairies (or in truth 6 save state quick loads). I think if you get the bomb jump correct you shouldn't be punished for it, but only if you miss. That would still cause quite a bit of pain to inexperienced players without essentially demanding perfection/cheating.

So maybe my suggestion is this. Before voting, go to the Halls of Pain with 8 hearts and 2 bottles (i.e the equipment you can get before your first tower climb) and get the Cane of Byrna without cheats or save states. Either leave to collect fairies or accept death if you don't make it. If you can do it and still think it's reasonable, then fine. If not, I feel like it's worth rethinking, especially with the cane being so vital in the icy world.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by SunGodPortal on Mon 30 May 2016 - 5:22

Plus, one thing that's important to me is being able to play the game through "legitimately" i.e. real hardware, no save states, no cheats.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.

So maybe my suggestion is this. Before voting, go to the Halls of Pain with 8 hearts and 2 bottles (i.e the equipment you can get before your first tower climb) and get the Cane of Byrna without cheats or save states. Either leave to collect fairies or accept death if you don't make it. If you can do it and still think it's reasonable, then fine. If not, I feel like it's worth rethinking, especially with the cane being so vital in the icy world.

I never got that far. LOL I finished rescuing Zelda but not long after I remember coming to a part where I didn't know what to do next. I hated the design of the first dungeon so much that it really didn't give me any incentive to continue. I don't mind a good challenge (or even an extreme challenge), but it almost felt like a game that didn't want you to play it. It was needlessly difficult to the point of trolling.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Puzzledude on Mon 30 May 2016 - 7:07

I don't mind a good challenge (or even an extreme challenge), but it almost felt like a game that didn't want you to play it. It was needlessly difficult to the point of trolling.
I made a god mode/byrna hack for PW by the way for these reasons.

Conn provided the code to disable damage to Link from bombs, while still retaining knock-back.
I vote Yes on this.
Regarding turning down the difficulty to be able to play on real hardware without save states. For this you will need to tune the difficulty down a lot and since this will be 1.2 version and will thus render 1.1 no longer available, you need to think this through. No save states will mean to remake the guardhouse/gameplay to be able to defend before getting the sword somehow and that will change the Kaizo nature of PW. Nor can you force the player to pick up the Cane of Byrna.

Many did Not pick it up and failed the game at Nabooru's hole in dark world with no possibility to go back to light world for the Cane (and if they could, they would be able to finish the game too early). Nothing can be done for this problem, which was brought up by many players as the "fault of the creators, which made them drop the game or use cheats", yet they were simply being odd in our eyes not getting the Cane right after intro dungeon.

The solution to this is to either give Byrna by default (srm hack on start up) or make another cave entrance to the same cave with Byrna in the dark world (since 2 caves lead to the same heart piece in dark world).

So as you can see, fixing all the problems of PW or tackling with its difficulty is something to be thought through.

To be able to finish PW without save states by "regular" players, you will definitely need to implement the Fist hack (be able to knock/stun enemies with no sword) as well as give the player the Cane of Byrna by default, since there is no way of forcing them to pick it up and they will need it against the Armos knights in level-1 and specially in Farore's isle (many quit the game here due to unavoidable flames). Without Byrna Farore is pretty much undoable for most players with no save states (based on revisions).

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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Euclid on Mon 30 May 2016 - 8:01

People probably don't realise, Farore is made so you abuse wall dashes and hookshot invincible frames in the levels with the fireblades, just run from the beamos and they shouldn't hit you... too badly.

The Armos knight boss in Naryu has an "invincible" spot just above the entry door - people are just inpatient about beating the knights and start to move all over the place. I can't remember if the boomerang feature is in the final build though (boomerang + armos knight = instant k.o.). If people have looked at the zmv replay I've done somewhere (3 save state spots used through the entire game, IIRC Draegor, Impa's boss and the potion boots and bombs puzzle because I'm lazy to reclimb for the latter) it shows how to beat them legit.

I still don't get why people complain about Nabooru so much. Except for the first 3 levels, there's hardly any branches in the bottom level layouts that you just run to the closest hole available, or wait for the cape in Shiek - which will need the mirror shield (or some wall-bubble hugging guts)

PW is also made so you don't get the blue cane before finishing Draegor - he is perfectly do-able without the blue cane if you keep count of the lightning.

The amount of bomb jumps required for Halls of pain to get the tower key is actually calculated so you can't get it before heading to Draegor in the second quest (first quest is a lot more lenient with the hookshot) - even though you may know the lost wood combination. Also people would have noticed the key is easier to get than the cane - that is on purpose.

In retrospect, bomb damage should be disabled on link to make the halls easier.

While you are there also get rid of pit damage as well (or fix the ice level room with floortiles/mouldrum so you don't have to fall to finish the room.)
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by SunGodPortal on Tue 31 May 2016 - 18:18

And also while on topic of balancing the overall difficulty I'd suggest restoring the soldiers original speed, you'd be amazed in knowing how many players actually complained about this.

YES. THIS.

Those light speed soldiers were annoying as hell. There were some cases where if you made one mistake you absolutely could not get away from them and could not hit them because Link keeps taking damage.

Think about that. One of the most common enemies in the game was a death trap. There aren't even any bosses in A Link to the Past where you can't make mistakes. If those soldiers were able to catch up with you, you were pretty much toast. I HATED that.

Also, why should they run as fast or faster than Link when they are loaded with armor and he is only wearing some sort of magical tunic (much lighter)?

*end rant*
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Conn on Tue 31 May 2016 - 18:37


And also while on topic of balancing the overall difficulty I'd suggest restoring the soldiers original speed, you'd be amazed in knowing how many players actually complained about this.

YES. THIS.
YES!!!!!!!
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Puzzledude on Tue 31 May 2016 - 18:42

YES. THIS.

Those light speed soldiers were annoying as hell. There were some cases where if you made one mistake you absolutely could not get away from them and could not hit them because Link keeps taking damage.
That's true, however I don't think this is an easy fix, or is it? Otherwise definitely to implement.

You could also in this instance give the players a Roc Feather item for the cause of removing bomb jumping altogether, this should please a mass amount of people.
From a debugging perspective this is not recomended, since I think there is no way to fully debug the feather, unless if it would work only where it was meant to be used (but then the item would not be so useful).

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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Conn on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 3:32

That's true, however I don't think this is an easy fix, or is it? Otherwise definitely to implement.
It should be a byte change only. Maybe Euclid has the position somewhere? If not, it surely is traceable Smile

Jupp, no roc's feather. It should be a hell to port it with bottle catching fairies, graphics and such. It is possible but with bomb jump taking no damage you already have an equivalent.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by qwertymodo on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 3:41

Definitely no feather. With the shovel, there's no room left in the inventory anyway. I'm not going to disable fall damage either, only considering the bomb damage. If you screw up a jump you should get hurt. I'm not looking to turn this into complete easy mode. But if you make it 8 jumps in and then fall, it's just cruel that not only do you have to start over, you've taken 9 damage in the process. Take your one hit and start over. Difficult, but not aggravatingly painful.

And yes, I'll tweak the soldier speed if I can find it, that's a good call. Might leave it faster than the original by a little, we'll see. Definitely worth testing and playing around with it.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Euclid on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 3:56

Its only a few bytes for the soldier change, i'll dig it up for you.

EDIT:
3FB41 to 3FB419 - 01 -> 00.

In case you haven't noticed between 3FB00 to 3FBFF is a sprite reference table of "when to apply speed hack", and 41 to 49 is as follows:

41 = Soldier
42 = Blue Soldier
43 = Red Spear Soldier
44 = Crazy Blue Killer Soldiers
45 = Crazy Red Spear Soldiers
46 = Blue Archer Soldiers
47 = Green Archer Soldiers (in the bushes)
48 = Red Spear Soldiers (in special armor)
49 = Red Spear Soldiers (in the bushes)

Putting the value back to 0 will revert them, or keep some of the 01s there to keep that sprite with speed hacks.

Don't be surprised to find a variant of this hack in conkers in the future!
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by qwertymodo on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 14:22

Do you have the actual speed hack code if I want to try and tweak the speed value instead of just disabling it? I can probably trace and disassemble it now that I have the data table, but if you have it already that would save the hassle.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Puzzledude on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 14:49

3FB41 to 3FB419 - 01 -> 00.
You probably meant 3FB49.


41 = Soldier (aka green soldier)
42 = Blue Soldier
43 = Red Spear Soldier
44 = Crazy Blue Killer Soldiers (aka Warrior)
45 = Crazy Red Spear Soldiers (aka spear throwing Warrior)
46 = Blue Archer Soldiers
47 = Green Archer Soldiers (in the bushes)
48 = Red Spear Soldiers (in special armor)
49 = Red Spear Soldiers (in the bushes)

PS
Great of you for posting this.

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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by qwertymodo on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 17:50

Erock, I understand what you're saying, but the fact is, this was a game hack built by a handful of people in their spare time using reverse-engineered tools.  Comparing it to an OEM release is just silly, and so is the "if you're not going to fix everything, no point in fixing anything" pessimism.  There is a very specific reason I'm refusing to do any kind of dungeon redesign.  I don't want to make a new hack.  I don't even want to make PW v2.0.  Because if I did, then I'd open up the entire can of worms of saying I don't want to release until I have an entire game worth of content that is exactly the way I want it, and that's not what I'm trying to do.  I'm saying that yes, PW has it's issues.  Some can't be fixed without a full-game overhaul.  Others can be quite well smoothed over with some minor mechanical changes, like giving you L0 stun in the Guardhouse.  Those are the rough edges I want to tackle.  It's still PW, just polished up a bit to address as many of the worst pain points as possible without fundamentally changing the game.  If Euclid wants to finish v2.0, or somebody like Puzzledude wants to do the same, more power to them, but that's not my forte, and yet at the same time, I'm really opposed to the pessimistic "all or nothing" idealism.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by SunGodPortal on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 18:43

Once you're done I'll give this game another shot. I've always wanted to try this game again but I didn't want to play with one of the god modes. Usually when a game is unfair I don't mind to cheat, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it with ALttP. LOL
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Conn on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 19:16


I'm pretty sure you could speed up other sprites through!
*hint*helmasaur king (Bowser)*hint*....or if I come around and decide to finally add that soldiers warp you at the beginning hack Smile
I think that soldier warp is mandatory for your game Wink also, the code is more or less finished (if we find that thread, that is)

Erock, I also understand your point and I think around 2000 people already complained about the difficulty... me too, but since Puzz made remodel, which I played from start to end, there's no reason to complain anymore. PW is a fantastic game, the graphics are brillant and the story as well. So I suggest looking on the bright side of this game Smile
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Conn on Thu 2 Jun 2016 - 5:36

I pretty much think that the authors of Conker learned from the constructive critique of PW, so no worries Wink

And yes, I'm pretty sure there will be a shitstorm, but mainly about that Conker isn't Link, but not so much on the gameplay, graphics and such. Try to make everybody happy and you surely fail. I am also pretty sure that many people are going to like what we've done Wink
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Euclid on Thu 2 Jun 2016 - 8:16

I'm still waiting for the zelda 3 full hack release which rivals the amount of changes done to lttp like PW (noting PW was completed is <4 years)

9.4 years and still counting - hopefully it'll stop at 10.

Where's that hack which can be thrown in my face saying PW sucks and X is 10x better.

PS: thanks Puzzledude correcting that offset, very hard to type these things on a tablet.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by SunGodPortal on Fri 3 Jun 2016 - 1:08

It's still amazing what we are able to make with PW given it only took four years to make. I'm pretty sure if we had at least gotten real beta testers instead of testing the game ourselves we wouldnt be here today!

Remember this when it's time for testing again. I really have no involvement in the Conker hack so my perspective is a fresh one. I don't know the secrets and I didn't design any of the dungeons or puzzles so I have no idea what to expect from one room to the next.
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Re: Disable bomb damage in PW?

Post by Charmander106 on Fri 3 Jun 2016 - 2:22

Seph wrote:But with that said, I dont regret having met Conn, Puzzledude, Erockbrox, Trovsky, SGP, Charmander106 and his twin brother, RedScorpion (who hooked me up with Conn!), XaserLE, Spane, Moegami, Potentialing and all others which I forgot about. And you too. I still loved doing what I was doing while it lasted and its still a big part of my life. When I die and my memory flashes before my eyes, I'm sure a good part of it will be about those times when I hacked Zelda 3! :-)

I'm really happy to be a part of this community!

Parallel Worlds was the one of the first hacks that I played when I discovered Rom Hacking to this day no other hack of Zelda 3 has ever amazed me as much as Parallel Worlds did, even with all it's flaws!  Smile

Loved the game so much I attempted at a run of Parallel Worlds on Wii Virtual Console without savestates and rewind, and succeeded! It felt really good...  Very Happy

qwertymodo wrote:Ok, so I had another balance-related idea for PW.  Conn provided the code to disable damage to Link from bombs, while still retaining knock-back.  I feel like that would be a nice compromise in PW for all of the bomb jumping you have to do.  You'd still take damage from falling into a pit if you miss, but it wouldn't be doubled by the bomb damage plus the fall damage.  Thoughts?
I think it is something I would want. It's really annoying to have to deal with bomb damage as well as pit damage if you fail.
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