A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 8:21



For example, putting a row of pots along this room would be an easy fix.

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 9:03

Yes, this room was fixed, since the indoors can be edited to anything, because it has "regular" elements (as long as the number of elements is the same and even repointing to anywhere is possible due to 3 byte pointers, which are basically capable of JSL).

Unfortunately the overworld is somewhat not that friendly, so changing that black rock with the warp to white rock was not responding, since you see, a lot of overworld elements are unique, due to being 32x32 and are a gfx drawing. This is not really editable in hex, unless you have luck. You also have no options for new free elements which would be needed here. So specially undoing fake flippers is not doable (since you also have brown floor/grass here).
So I actually found another way, which is even better I believe.

PS
Can you tell me the location in Rom for the element drops from sprites, since it seems this was changed (repointed) to some other location from what the original game is using. (This is only for information purposes).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 9:05

I still think it works better if you switch all the chests/item locations I mentioned in my previous post.
Yes, the new chests' prizes are mainly the same as you have described in that post. Things that don't match are due to technical/debug reasons. This is common in romhacking: you have an idea, and want to make something, but then realize that the game for instance will not allow it (this is specially true in the Japan version, which will allow only hex/ASM editing).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 10:23

Fake flippers is a non-issue since you can activate it from multiple places, it's really not something worth worrying about. Nor is preventing EG or the Turtle Rock mirror clip, but I think you already did those changes anyway. As I said originally, if someone wants to use glitches then ultimately there is very little we can do to prevent them as there are hundreds of ways to perform them.

For the prize packs I used a sprite editor tool SuperSkuj made, rather than making any hex edits myself, so I'm not sure exactly how that was changed. I believe he posted it somewhere on this forum already though.

Unless the rock is changed for Ice Palace then Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts in Ice Palace won't work. I already changed the overworld rock leading to Death Mountain from a white rock to a black rock with a hex edit. I'll see if I can find a way to do the Ice Palace rock too, so don't worry about that for now.

Once you are finished with your changes I will play through and tweak it myself, before releasing it fully.

Thanks!

Very Happy

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 10:48

For the prize packs I used a sprite editor tool SuperSkuj made, rather than making any hex edits myself, so I'm not sure exactly how that was changed. I believe he posted it somewhere on this forum already though.
Oh yea exactly, lol on my part.

Unless the rock is changed for Ice Palace then Moon Pearl at Zora and Titan's Mitts in Ice Palace won't work. I already changed the overworld rock leading to Death Mountain from a white rock to a black rock with a hex edit. I'll see if I can find a way to do the Ice Palace rock too, so don't worry about that for now.
Once you are finished with your changes I will play through and tweak it myself, before releasing it fully.
Yes, exactly, you'll see, my 3 chest cicle works perfectly.
So my version is this:
Zora still gives gloves-2, rock remains black.
But 3 chest cicle is: Moonperal moves to the so called cape room in ALTTP= you need glove-2 and shoes (which is ideal), the 100 rupees there move to dark forest (since the flippers chest was too easy and fast to get), while the flippers cicle to ice palace (where Moonpearl was).

So after I'm done, I suggest you play it through and simply decide what to change further to your wishes. You can for instance undo this cicle and then swap glove-2 and Moonpearl (and fix the rock).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 11:16

That sounds like an interesting change, it sounds like it should play well. I'll give it a go when you're done!

Really appreciate your help by the way!

Very Happy

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 16:04

Sure. It is not every day that we are getting a Kaizo version for a game.

By the way, the prize packs are indeed editable with superskuj's sprite editor, however some expert had to edit the rest of the sprites, since not even I know how this was done:
namely: I tracked down the mushroom sprite in forest: code is 3 bytes: 15 1E E7, which is Y and X cordinate, E7 is sprite type. This is unchanged from the original game, but E7 is mushroom sprite. In Kaizo this is 100 rupees, which is not even a sprite to  be picked from: all sprites in the game go from 00 to F2, and 100 rupees is not among them.

Furthermore: heartpice to cape is impossible through Hyrule Magic and skuj's sprite editor: sprite is heartpiece which is EB. But that sprite is now cape, on death mountain it is Mirror. Both sprites are again not available from the sprite list. No main item is, since they are only in chests, which have a different table.

So someone really needed to do something advanced here. My guess is to hook the code to the chest contents somehow and then made a new link between this and the sprites, while being area depended. This sounds like some advanced ASM, specially since the gfx is correct.

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 16:14

Ah yes, you would be talking about Karkat/mmxbass! He has put a lot of time and effort into developing the randomizer ROM which uses the Japanese 1.0 version as a base. I used an edited randomizer ROM as my base when constructing this. The randomizer is now more advanced that what is present in my Kaizo though as it is constantly being worked on and updated.

That would be why there is some different code. He also helped me make some specific changes for this Kaizo especially. The ROM is definitely "dirty" as it has gone through many changes from many different people from the original.

I think he checks this forum occasionally, but I speak to him every day on our ALTTP Discord sever where a lot of hacking/randomizer/speedrun discussion takes place. Feel free to join us there, or if you'd like to speak to him here I can let him know too!

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Thu 9 Feb 2017 - 19:12

Yes, like said, you might not realize it, but these randomizer programs actually have some special capabilities.
Meanwhile I found some problems in the dark palace. I know this is Kaizo and you wanted the idea of: unlock a door with a key to get a key, however actually this can render the dungeon impossible, since you already have the hammer and can also unlock that one door near the end of the dungeon (dark room just after you hit the statue's eye).
Now you have 0 keys and can no longer do 1 for 1 (this skips 2 areas which have nothing, but the third area has the big key, so unsolvable). I've already solved this problem.

The second thing I found is in the water dungeon: now you have the Hookshot right away, if you take the key right of the big chest and unlock the left door and move the push switch, you flood the other small key, again unsolvable situation. This was also solved.

I think he checks this forum occasionally, but I speak to him every day on our ALTTP Discord sever where a lot of hacking/randomizer/speedrun discussion takes place. Feel free to join us there, or if you'd like to speak to him here I can let him know too!
I heard about discord and was there as a guest.
This all shows the randomizer is a very well made editor, if it is able to do all those edits. Like said, it probably hooks to the chest definition treasure and can display them as sprites (with no chest).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by zarby89 on Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 0:42

He rewrited the code almost entirely :p
alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working
http://alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working/utilities.asm
http://alttp.run/karkat/randomizer/working/heartpieces.asm

if you want help for overworld map you can always ask me Razz , it need to be uncompressed and recompressed and can't really be done without an editor

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 8:04

Swamp Palace:

If you leave the dungeon and come back the water is no longer drained so you cannot softlock there. This is a change we already built into the randomizer. So nothing needs to be changed.

Palace of Darkness:

You can do a bomb jump ("hammer jump") to get to the dark maze where the big key is and thus continue, however no problem adding in another small key. However note that this small key CANNOT be in the first basement chest, or the 2 chests after you go through the east wing. This destroys the initial visit to the dungeon when you don't have hammer in order to get hookshot.

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Fri 10 Feb 2017 - 14:08

Swamp Palace:

If you leave the dungeon and come back the water is no longer drained so you cannot softlock there. This is a change we already built into the randomizer. So nothing needs to be changed.
This is true. I just wanted to make the dungeon as friendly as possible to not force the player to leave the entire dungeon. The other situation is that in case you get the small key and then hookshot up, you basically can skip the entire left section of the dungeon. I just made small changes to also utilize that part. But note: the gameplay is basically the same as in your stream, but in my version you actually need to visit the rooms.


Palace of Darkness:

You can do a bomb jump ("hammer jump") to get to the dark maze where the big key is and thus continue, however no problem adding in another small key. However note that this small key CANNOT be in the first basement chest, or the 2 chests after you go through the east wing. This destroys the initial visit to the dungeon when you don't have hammer in order to get hookshot.
Yes, I'm avare of both, however this still needs work:
-Section A (0 keys/1 key door)= ie unchanged when no hammer
-Section B (2 keys/4 key doors)= ie when hammer
-Section C (1 key/2 key doors)

Basically the section B is the problem here. There are at least 2 scenarios which render the dungeon unsolvable:
Collect 2 keys in section B (is max) and unlock the door which leads to Helmasaur (in the dark) and the second is the door, which leads to entrance. Result is: can never reach dark maze, or the chest with another key. Have 0 keys, which are all behind locked doors.

Second "bad" scenario:
Collect 2 keys in section B (is max) and unlock the door which leads back to the entrance, second key is used correctly (path to dark maze). Collect 1 key (C section), go to Helmasaur. Again 0 keys and can not reach big key, while all the small keys are behind locked doors.

Percentage of the 2nd bad scenario is very small, however for the 1st it is quite high.

Of course you have other scenarios too: best scenario is:
collect 2 keys only and unlock the "correct" 2 doors which lead directly to big key.

In my case I had to debug this to have no theoretical bad scenarios possible:
section A is now 0/0, problematic B is now 4/3, C is 1/2, sum is 5/5.
Result is: no bad scenario possible, while the gameplay is again similar to your play on Twitch.

There is also a thing of so called "mandatory unlock". Again in my case because of the edit we now have 4/5 mandatory unlocks. All this now renders the dungeon solvable in any scenario while also ensuring most of all rooms are visited.

I still see this as a debug, but there are elements of actual editing in this. So this is thus a collaboration hack, while your original remains intact, which is essential. In the original version I can thus not regard this as debug and leave the bad scenarios and thus debug only things like those overworld guards for instance. I will also leave the second dungeon intact in your original, making it possible to thus speed-run the dungeon without ever getting to the entire left section (the original idea).


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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 6:53

I don't fully follow what you've done but I'm sure it will make sense when I do a test playthrough. It sounds like you've made changes to prevent softlocks in both dungeons, so that's good. You're more than welcome to put those changes into the original version too if you like, but if not, that's okay too.

Thanks!

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 7:13

ChristosOwen wrote:I don't fully follow what you've done but I'm sure it will make sense when I do a test playthrough. It sounds like you've made changes to prevent softlocks in both dungeons, so that's good. You're more than welcome to put those changes into the original version too if you like, but if not, that's okay too.

Thanks!
Like said your original version is a thing. We can leave it the way you made it there (or not).

All together there is around 70% chance you can always solve the dungeon (dark palace), around 30% will render it unsolvable. In my version it is just 100/0.

I'm currently in Ganon tower. Here the placement of keys is ok. The only problem was, that you can get stuck in front of the door with no key, but I left this, since you have the Mirror, so the dungeon plays with no paradoxes, same for other dungeons.

Another problem I found is Tower of Hera. Falling into Ganon room actually has this dungeon definition. But you can also enter in light world. The game will not allow this, but since I know you absolutely want Moldorm after Ganon, this just needs the regular entrance and exit to Hera moved somwhere into dark world. Even only the exit is doable and it then functions as Hoolihan room. Light world entrance then goes to a trivial cave.

I don't fully follow what you've done but I'm sure it will make sense when I do a test playthrough.
It is not so complex as it sound. When you have the hammer and enter dark palace (originaly level one), you can reach 4 locked doors (before unlocking any door) but you can reach only 2 keys (before unlocking any door). This simply must be changed to match (thus give +2 keys in this area) to debug and prevent any theoretical bad scenario. Once you unlock all these 4 doors, the new expanded area contains 2 more locked doors (which again need another 2 keys in this area, in your case it was 1). Afterwards all doors are unlocked, thus now the number of doors is 0 (so 0 keys in the 2nd expanded area, in your case it was 3).

Nintendo made it a lot more complex: as in their version you had further parameters (not just small keys to get a big key, but also big key to get big chest/hammer and hammer to pound) and in their case the key logic was also accurate (no bad scenarios possible). So what might look as a paradox (key after locked door, was not, since the same area also contained the Hammer).


Last edited by Puzzledude on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 7:19; edited 1 time in total

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 7:18

You can enter Hera, but you cannot ascend as the Big Key is upstairs. So no need to change Hera? I expect people to enter and do tile room and find nothing (part of the troll)!

I understand what you did in PoD, makes sense!

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 7:29

You can enter Hera, but you cannot ascend as the Big Key is upstairs. So no need to change Hera?
Yes, no need to change indeed.

You just can not enter this dungeon through the regular entrance in the light world, must be dark world (anywhere).
So the "troll" entrance and the "actual" entrance (ie Ganon fall) must be in the dark world.

You will see what I mean here:
-load the Rom, go to Ganon and drop down the hole into Hera
-go all the way down to the entrance/exit and exit
-you are in light world now (dark world music is playing)
-make one area transit (go right from Hera) to the right part of the mountain
-and you will see what happens


(See the byte which controls dark/light world is set to dark, entering Ganon means set to dark, falling to Hera: still dark, exiting Hera: still dark - but you exit in light world). Result is: game is confused: byte is still reading dark, but you exit in light). So the game will not allow entering the same dungeon from 2 worlds.

But this of course can be solved while still keeping the "troll" entrance to confuse the player, just needs to be in the dark world somewhere.

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 7:49

I'd prefer to leave the normal entrance to Hera alone. This is a really minor issue which doesn't actually break anything. We call that "fake dark world" and scrolling one screen away will change back the world state as you mentioned. I mostly expect people to mirror/s+q after they finish in Hera rather than leave through the bottom exit, especially as they will most likley have already searched downstairs beforehand.

Changing the entrance to Hera seems like overkill here as it's so unlikely to come up, and even if it does, it doesn't even matter.

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 10:48

I'd prefer to leave the normal entrance to Hera alone.
Ok.
Meanwhile I actually found another way, since Moegami wanted such a feature to be able to enter in light and enter in dark world (and vice versa). And the short ASM was written by Conn.

So basically I can leave everything the way it is and actually tell the game to load the correct world. So I've done that, but like said you won't notice anything if you save and quit (with this fix or without this fix, so I've just put in the ASM anyway, in case someone wants to for some unknown reason continue without save and quit).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 10:54

Sounds perfect, thanks!

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 11 Feb 2017 - 15:19

Yes, this is how you do it if you are interested (simplified Conn's ASM):

hook is at 16551 for ALTTP, but in Kaizo/Japan, this is actually at 162B5:
make JSL here:
22 00 FF 0E EA= jump to 77F00 (indeed also empty space in Kaizo)

New code at 77F00 is:
64 8B 9C 0B 04, (rewrite old code overwritten because of JSL)
A5 A2, (load exit)
C9 77, (CMP to 77= Hera exit), 77 in hex is 119 in dec= room 119 is 1st Hera room
D0 03, (if not equal, branch next 3 bytes, BNE) so go to RTL
4C 0F FF, (if equal, JMP to local address FF0F= load LW code)
6B, (RTL) return and do nothing (if not equal routine)
A9 00, (load value 00, LDA= 00 is for light world)
8F CA F3 7E, (store to RAM 7EF3CA, which holds the LW/DW info)
6B, (RTL), bunny check skipped (not needed here)

Thus:
64 8B 9C 0B 04 A5 A2 C9 77 D0 03 4C 0F FF 6B A9 00 8F CA F3 7E 6B

Result is: always load LW (00) when exiting Hera, no matter the initial flag (00 or 40). Also tested in-game.

I'm actually not into ASM, but this is a short and simple enough example so I can actually track down what Conn did and adopt it.

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 16:28

Ok, Christos, I've sent you the release candidate per PM, since I've just defeated Ganon (legit playthrough this time) and thus made all the changes/debugs that I came across.

I have to say the Lite version seems suitable for general public actually (still a master quest/randomizer category though).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 17:21

That's great! Thanks a lot of your help and information. I'll do a test play as soon as I can and let you know any feedback!

Very Happy

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Puzzledude on Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 19:02

Yes, once I also know about any final changes you might want to make, they can be done and then we can make the final v1.0. This is then the final Rom in which we no longer do any changes, just one final playthrough before release (this is how it is usually done).

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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by Conn on Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 19:15

Could you post a let's play video or anything of this hack?
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Re: A Link to the Past: Kaizo Edition

Post by ChristosOwen on Sun 12 Feb 2017 - 19:49

Yeah I can do that when I test this Conn. I'll link it when I'm done

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