stronger sword beam

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stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Thu 26 Feb 2015 - 21:54

is there any way of increasing the attack power of the sword beam to do double damage? also the same damage output even with the upgrade swords, is that a limitation?

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Euclid on Fri 27 Feb 2015 - 4:34

Unheadered 0x36D3B - 01 01 02 03 -> 01 02 03 04

This will make it match the normal sword attack.
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Fri 27 Feb 2015 - 10:36

well the sword beam's attack power is equivalent to the fighter sword. can it be done to make its attack power rise per sword upgrade? also what about the gold sword spin attack doing double damage to most enemies?

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Puzzledude on Fri 27 Feb 2015 - 11:59

wizrobemaster wrote:well the sword beam's attack power is equivalent to the fighter sword.  can it be done to make its attack power rise per sword upgrade? also what about the gold sword spin attack doing double damage to most enemies?  
This is not really a logical statement, since it is already rising with sword upgrade. I'm guessing you wish for the beam to be more powerful as the sword itselft: then you need to change it from 01 02 03 04 to 02 03 04 05. Note: damage 05 is the biggest possible, so the spin attack of the golden sword is the maximum damage, that a sword can make. However some other values have different effects. Like my "fire sword". So if you change any of the above to 0B, it will have the same effect as the fire rod, and 0C the ice rod.

Here my sword study.

After studying the bytes which control the sword's power, I've come accross something interesting. Aside the normal damage values, there are also some other possibilities. A lot of them are not actually recommended for use, but some are.

Like the 0B value, which makes the enemies burn. It is the same as they were hit by a fire rod. With this knowledge the implementation of the Fire sword is possible, but spin attack must be redefined to normal damage 03 or above, to be able to beat Ganon and some other flame resisting enemies.


address 36D33 = start

order = sword 1, 2, 3, 4;
spin attack with sword 1, 2, 3, 4
stab with sword 1, 2, 3, 4 = 12 bytes.

values:
00 - enemy freezes, but on second hit Link freezes (not recomended), but it is recommended for spin attack (same effect as hookshot = freeze, + no effect on second hit)
01 - damage level 1
02 - damage level 2
03 - damage level 3
04 - damage level 4
05 - damage level 5
06 - damage level 2
07 - enemy freezes, but on second hit Link freezes (not recomended)
08 - damage level 2  
09 - damage level 5
0A - enemies will change into a hoping thing (but will display bug before that), no effect on strong enemies
0B - fire sword! = same as hitting the enemy with fire rod
0C - ice sword! = same as hitting the enemy with ice rod (some enemies are suddenly defeated, but dont get iced)
0D - fire sword
0E - ice sword
0F - enemies will change into a hoping thing (but will display bug before that), no effect on strong enemies
10 - sword can not hit the enemy

0B - no effect on Ganon
minimum for ganon is level-3 damage = 03

logical combination = 0B normal hit sword4
----------------------03 spin for sword4
----------------------01 stab for sword4

10 - sword can not hit the enemy
11 - sword can not hit the enemy
12 - sword makes half of level 1 damage, enemy is not bounced back
13 - sword makes half of level 1 damage, enemy is not bounced back
14 - sword can not hit the enemy
15 - level 2 damage, enemy is not bounced back
16 - sword makes half of level 1 damage, enemy is not bounced back
17 - sword makes half of level 1 damage, enemy is not bounced back
18 - sword can not hit the enemy
19 - sword can not hit the enemy
1A to 1F - sword can not hit the enemy
20 - enemy freezes, but on second hit Link freezes (not recomended)
21 - damage level 1, enemy is not bounced back
22 - damage level 2, enemy is not bounced back

further values to FF are supposed to be repeated or irrelevant (not recommended or not used).

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Fri 27 Feb 2015 - 19:30

so if I were make the spin attack stronger, then it would be a similar damage class to the silver arrows? I estimated that its attack power is 4 times greater than the golden sword, but if that was edited, then it would have the same restrictions the arrows would I presume? I noticed that it seems that the biggest issues with native Zelda come from it programming limitations.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 28 Feb 2015 - 5:37

wizrobemaster wrote:so if I were make the spin attack stronger, then it would be a similar damage class to the silver arrows?  I estimated that its attack power is 4 times greater than the golden sword, but if that was edited, then it would have the same restrictions the arrows would I presume?  I noticed that it seems that the biggest issues with native Zelda come from it programming limitations.  
Silver arrows can not be compared to sword damage. Swords are weaker. Using hex, you can not make any sword or spin attack as strong as silver arrows. Maximal damage with the sword is the spin attack with the golden sword (as the above table describes) or damage value 5. You can also make the burn or ice effect. Silver arrows are much stronger. For the sword to have the power of the silver arrows you would need ASM.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Conn on Sat 28 Feb 2015 - 6:28

silver arrow damage class is
09 - damage level 5
so the same as spin attack

$0cf2 determines the damage class taken; silver arrow puts an stores 09 inside
Code:

$86/ED25 8D F2 0C    STA $0CF2  [$88:0CF2]   A:0009 ;09 in the accumulator

Comparison with spin attack, stores 05 here:
Code:

$86/ED6E 8D F2 0C    STA $0CF2  [$86:0CF2]   A:0005 ;05 in the accumulator
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Puzzledude on Sat 28 Feb 2015 - 7:59

Good to know, haven't realized that. I always thought Silver Arrows are stronger. So this is Link's strongest attack possible then.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Conn on Sat 28 Feb 2015 - 8:04

I think every item is inside your list. I strongly assume class 08 is the normal bow, 07 - boomerang, 20 hookshot, 0f Magic powder and so on.

If you'd know more just make with geiger a breakpoint at 7e/0cf2, write and hit an enemy with any weapon, then you will see which class is caused by which weapon in A:.
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sat 28 Feb 2015 - 9:35

in comparison to the master sword from the oracle series, that weapon I presume is stronger with a spin attack while equipped with the red ring? is there any means of expanding the damage classes or is it too limiting for the game?

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Conn on Sat 28 Feb 2015 - 13:02

Little is limited when knowing asm, so I advise to learn that Wink
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sun 1 Mar 2015 - 23:06

how difficult is learning asm?

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Conn on Mon 2 Mar 2015 - 7:50

I think this is strongly dependent on your IQ in Logical thinking/mathematics and thus relative. I do it for 12 years now and still cannot code hdma, apu asm, mode7 and other complex stuff... but I have a good overview what's Happening inside the cpu.
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Mon 2 Mar 2015 - 9:20

any form of coding I usually find extremely confusing. zelda3 would be much easier to hack if it was 8-bit as intended. if that was the case, then it would probably have even more limitations as I know that 16-bit is exponentially 4 times greater than 8-bit.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by assassin17 on Sat 14 Mar 2015 - 3:41

Puzzledude: there are only 16 attack classes, seen in Section 5 of my Tony-award-winning guide:
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when you hack a class above 0Fh, you're getting nonsense in two ways during the process:
1) you're reading the next enemy's data in the 7F/6000 RAM structure.
2) you're reading whatever the hell is after the 06BAF1 ROM structure.  i dunno what's there offhand, but it's probably unrelated to damages.

(the format of these structures is explained in Section 8 of the guide.)
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sat 14 Mar 2015 - 15:16

one thing I have discovered with damage classes is that contrary to the belief that the silver arrows instantly kill ay enemy vulnerable to the arrows, it deals heavy damage in which most strong enemies will take 2-3 hits with the golden sword. when hacking/glitching the game to get the silver arrows before misery mire, it took 2 hits to kill vitreous during the second phase. from my discovery, I suspect its attack power is 4 times greater than the gold sword.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by Conn on Sat 14 Mar 2015 - 18:14

well Gold sword spin is attack class 05, silver arrows 09. But you are right, the attack Level isn't exact the same. I traced the hp damage on the bomb throwing cyclops
$86/EF6A 9D 50 0E    STA $0E50,x

Code:

L3 normal: 08
L3spin: 10
L4 normal: 10
L4spin: 40

arrow: 04
Silver arrow: 64
So the silver arrow takes $24 more damage than the L4 spin. However, Keep in mind that the HP damage might be different for each Monster type. But in that range (I mean 10->40 for normal/spin attack) it is an instant kill for every normal Monster equally whether you use L4spin or silver arrow. The cyclops, which are to my knowing the strongest normal Monsters, have "only" 14 hp.
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sat 2 Jan 2016 - 23:32

I thought hinox has 12 hp. also when I mentioned the sword beam, I meant the ranged attack from the master sword. what is its address?

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by assassin17 on Sat 2 Jan 2016 - 23:53

you're both wrong; Hinox has 20 HP. Razz

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Conn must've spent too much time looking at hex numbers.
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sat 2 Jan 2016 - 23:59

I thought the gold sword was twice as strong as the tempered sword?

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by assassin17 on Sun 3 Jan 2016 - 0:20

it is the majority of time (when comparing normal strikes or Pegasus charges, anyway).  but it can vary by monster.  notable exceptions are Enemy #67, 69, 72, 73, 74, and 136 (except on GBA for that last one).  meaningless exceptions are Enemy #25, 27, 131, and 161.
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sun 3 Jan 2016 - 1:23

armos knight if I recall correctly is resistant to sword damage but weak against arrows. Zelda 3's damage system from what I have learned is very complicated and inconsistent. strangely, it is the only title where I have seen this complicated formula.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by SunGodPortal on Sun 3 Jan 2016 - 1:40

heh Yeah Armos Knights take forever to kill with a sword. Takes a good number of spin-slashes. I think the damage system is fine. What was it again that you didn't like about it, wiz?
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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by wizzrobemaster on Sun 3 Jan 2016 - 2:32

that is was inconsistent. in every other title, dealing damage and receiving damage was always the same when having armor upgrades. the blue ring halves damage and the red ring takes quarter damage. in Zelda 3, depending on the enemies, sometimes the red mail will halve damage instead of a quarter or reduce damage by 66.7%. the most it can reduce is one quarter. also traps always deal one point of damage and winders are the worst because they move randomly and are sometimes impossible to dodge. Zelda 3's traps tend to be very cheap at times.

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Re: stronger sword beam

Post by SunGodPortal on Sun 3 Jan 2016 - 2:59

the blue ring halves damage and the red ring takes quarter damage.

But to me that sounds too uniform. The only way it should be like that is if all of the enemies have the same attacks. It also makes sense to me why some things don't change simply because of the armor you wear as sometimes it just doesn't matter. Some attacks are going to hurt you whether your shirt is green, blue, red or if you are shirtless.
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